卡普乐大师参访耕云导师对话录（英文版）

耕云导师

GENG　ＹＵＮ

Conversation between Master Philip Lapleau and Master Keng-Yung
March 17, 1984
in Taipei
Brief introduction:
During a trip visiting Taiwan, Master Philip Kapleau had a conversation with Master Keng-Yun (Lee is the surname), and the conversation is recorded in the following
Kapleau:
May I ask about Mr. Lee's history of studying Buhdism and the background of life?

Lee:
I am a veteran. I seldom have close relationship with other venerated ones of Buddhism. Regarding why studying Zen? Because I felt that a human being should understand the meaning of life. What people are actually living for? Where is the worth of life? Is life illusionary and nonpermanent? Or is there an aspect of eternity?
In the opinions of philosophers, there is Unitarianism and Dualism. But truth is impossible to have many types. Then what is the truth of universe anyhow? And furthermore what is the relationship between the truth of universe and each individual?
For trying to break through these questions, I had also consulted many venerable monks. But these venerable monks besides teaching me to cordially chant the name of Buddha; also did not have preached whatsoever. I could then only try to understand it personally by reading the scriptures of Zen school from the Sutras of Buddhism.
It is only fair to say that I am an adorer of Zen, but I cannot say that what can I represent. In these forty years, I have turned Zen into being the sole interest of life, and not being one of the interests. Hence the direction of my endeavor is to turn Zen into being the merit of life, instead of being the investigation of knowledge or theory. Which also means to turn it into the entirety of personality, instead of being part of knowledge. This is the background of my efforts in these decades.

Kapleau:
In your past forty years, have you already found the secret of life that you have been looking for?

Lee:
The secret that I have found can be expressed in a few words, i.e. "All sentient beings are originally being Buddha."

Kapleau:
May I ask what is the origin of Buddha?

Lee:
The origin of Buddha, in terms of the terminology of Buddha - that is the enlightenment of life.

Kapleau:
Is life itself being mystical or ordinary?

Lee:
Life is the most ordinary, the most practical, nothing mystical about.

Kapleau:
Can you give some examples to show what is the natural way of life?

Lee:
Why would people live unpleasantly? It is because he had lost the original, natural and liberated mentality. The original is eternal; truth must be original. As long as one could recover up to approximating the original mentality (impossible to be exactly the same), his life would become very pleasant.

Kapleau:
If you were going to die now, what would you do?

Lee:
I want to add one word first: At present, the mentality that enables us to do conversation is not the original mentality; instead, it is similar to the rendered functions of a computer after being filled with data. Once I had left the current life, would return to the original state of life.

Kapleau:
After returning to your origin, what kind of mentality is it like?

Lee:
Ordinary, I would never discuss this question. But since Master Kapleau coming from afar, I could talk about it.
After having washed and brushed clean the polluting stuff that was originally not being existent in the mind; when he is living in this societ, it is still only a conditional nirvana; instead of being absolutely fulfilled.
No matter how good a practitioner Master Kapleau you are, master Kapleau, this life is still not being absolutely fulfilled. Only after we have got rid of the body and returned to the original state of life, would then be absolutely fullfilled.
Here I would like to modify a word of Dicare, " I think, hence I exist." Once people return to the original state of life, he would no longer think, instead, it is, " I aware, hence I exist." That self-awareness has only brightness. If Master Kapleau had ever read the " Heart Sutra," the words of the "Heart Sutra," is the description for those who have returned to their original state of life.

Kapleau:
Descartes claims, " I think hence I exist;" I felt " I work hence I exist." What is Mr. Lee's opinion?

Lee:
As to life itself, no matter whether it thinks or not; works or not, it would always be there. I want to repeat one word: the "I" that is doing the thinking is not the original "I"; it is the secondary "I." The original one would not do any thinking. The "I" who is working is also not the original "I"; it is the "I" of Karma.

Kapleau:
Can you reveal the true "I"?

Lee:
If you want me to reveal, I can only say that: please you take a look.
Kapleau:
May I ask that could Mr. Lee show the original face before being born by the parents?

Lee:
You sit right in front s me; should feel it very clearly.

Kapleau:
That is true, but are you sure that you have seen the original face before being born by the parents?

Lee:
Surely I do.

Kapleau:
Do you believe that Buddhism is helpful to the trouble of the world? If it is helpful, then where could it be of help?

Lee:
Everybody's mind could only be similar to each other, not being completely identical, hence everybody's mentality is different either.
People of the past once said, "The differences in people's mind is like each individual's face." Because the mentality of each individual is different, hence each individual would feel differently.
One's mistakes, correctness, merriness, and frustrations are essentially a matter of mentality; and are neither a matter of knowledge nor a matter of idea.
Having certain types of mentality will result in certain types of feelings and thus would come up with certain type of idea. Once he has recovered his mentality to a state that is correct, being very harmonious, and conforming to the "Middle Way," he would then no longer have any frustrations, sins and mistakes. This world would then become a real pure land; without dirt of mind, without frustrations and sins.

Kapleau:
How could we recover back to our original mentality?
Lee:
Have to rely on Zen.

Kapleau:
What is Mr. Lee's opinion about Buddhism in Taiwan?

Lee:
I had always been in the Army and seldom get in touch with the people of Buddhism; may be have a incorrect opinion: If dividing Buddhism into two different area, for Buddhism in Taiwan, Buddhism study is very prosperous, but Buddhadharma is still not enough.

Kapleau:
Yes. Ordinary people would always treat Buddhism study as a research topic in cultures, and lack of practice. We should work more on practice.

Lee:
There is one thing I want to add to Master Kapleau's words. The Buddhadharma that I have been talking about has nothing to do with language and words. It has neither theory nor logic relationships. It is simply a way to enable the enlightenment of life. and regretfully, I feel that there is too little Buddhadharma in Taiwan.

Kapleau:
The first precept of the "Five Precepts" of Buddhism is killing lives. According to Mr. Lee's experience in military service, what do you think about killing lives?

Lee:
If one really discover the "Non-dualistic of the self and the others." Which means when there is no difference between oneself and the others, then would not kill lives. If not having reached this step, he would kill.

Kapleau:
Are you a vegetarian?

Lee:
I am not a vegetarian.

Kapleau:
If you are not a vegetarian, then could you see the "Non-dualistic of the self and the others?

Lee:
Very clearly!

Kapleau:
According to the meaning of this word, has Mr. Lee already got enlightened?

Lee:
Exactly. What I want to add is: ordinary people would usually not admit it; why would I dare to admit? Because: enlightenment is everybody's duty. Nothing special. Everybody should get enlightened. If not asking for enlightenment it would then be personally willing to be covered up.

Kapleau:
Yes, we should get enlightened. For the sake of individual, for the sake of the mankind, we are obliged to get enlightened. But we should not say that, " I have already got enlightened."

Lee:
Your word is quite right. Because: I talked about getting enlightened is because you had asked me. If you had not asked me, I would never have said it. Moreover, when I was answering this question, I was very troubled. Because Chinese people are very modest, how could I say that I have got enlightened?
But if I said that I did not get enlightened, then would somewhat be undermining myself, nor being honest to other people. Therefore I would just go straight ahead to say that that I have got enlightened.
Why did I say so? It is because you have so asked. Why did I add that getting enlightened is not a big deal? Because I think getting enlightened has nothing mystical about.

Kapleau:
What kind of spiritual condition do you have when you were getting enlightened?
Lee:
I must say, most people would think that getting enlightened means finding something mystical, having something special, or finding something big theory.
None of these! An enlightened person absolutely has nothing special, nor finding out whatever big theory. Because: The truth is ordinary and general. Therefore, getting enlightened is not something that is a groundbreaking big event.
This can be explained by separating it into two pieces. First, when I got enlightened, I found that me and other people are not two things; it is just like what Buddhism has said, "Non-dualistic of the self and the others, and the equality of sentient beings and Buddha." Second, what I had found is only the eternal phase of life.

Kapleau:
You have said very well, but could you use language to describe the experience of being getting enlightened?

Lee:
I would now ask you one word as my reply. When you are sitting in front of me and talking, and when you are talking with someone else; what is the difference in mental felling?

Kapleau:
I feel that there is no difference at all between you and me; nor is there any difference between me and each of you who sits here.

Lee:
Since you have said so, your words would exactly be my reply.

Kapleau:
There is a proverb saying, "Since the ancient era, originally there is nothing exists," is it right?

Lee:
Surely it is. May I ask master Kapleau: What is the opinion about Zen of ordinary people in America?

Kapleau:
I cannot represent the opinion of all American. I would make some simple comments only based on the opinions about Zen of me, and my students.
Zen has very large attraction force in the intellectuals of the United States. Any idea, as long as it can be practically utilized, and would result in some effects, would be good.
The basic spirit of Zen is something simple, intuitive and practical. It is just like Mr. Lee said, "Zen is not a kind of theory; instead, it is the way of life of the mankind."
During 1960-1970, Zen used to be very popular, especially in the younger generation. Zen is still highly welcomed in the United States, but there are more elder people who do practice than the younger ones.
Zen master usually use rebuffing instead of praising. Like saying: "Bodhidharma is a toothless monk," or saying, "Having chanted the name of Buddha once, washing the mouth three days." And can this word be said to Jesus?
It means neither Bodhidharma nor Buddha has any difference with us. Only they have accomplished their practice, therefore did not praise them highly. This also means the so-called paying respect is being not respectful; not paying respect is being respectful.