在西藏再次引起世人注目的时候,今儿发两组照片,一组是广为流传的一个美国人镜头下的西藏。大概从本世纪九十年代起,随著好莱坞的电影如《Seven Years In Tibet》、发现频道(Discovery)、美国国家地理杂志以及新闻媒体的大量介绍,西藏的神奇和美丽,被许多西方人关注;西藏特殊的地理位置以及可能隐藏的巨大的自然资源,更是让西方大国虎视眈眈。西方社会既有对这个“世外桃源”的浪漫遐想,又有对这片神圣土地的别有用心。越来越多的西方人热衷于西藏,到西藏旅游或其他,从不同的视觉,解读西藏。
阿列克2008-04-07 14:49:15回复悄悄话
想起小时候爸妈说:好吃好喝供你还天天换着法子气我们,不听话。我就想:一点小事就发那么大脾气,没完没了,有的时候还动粗。我宁肯换到穷人家去。其实这跟中西教育子女方式差异很象。吃饭的时候爸妈经常夹一块肉放到我碗里,不管我爱不爱吃,就算爱吃也不领情,外国人喜欢对孩子说would you like some...就连父母要帮孩子系鞋带都要问can i help u另外社会福利机构应跟国外学定点每星期去领
chatter2008-04-07 10:38:28回复悄悄话
To 天佑中华_我的祖国:
Last part of your comment to Steven is regarding "love China". Steven claim that he loves China. That does not mean he cannot criticize some policy or doings of Chinese government. Those are two different things. Just like you hear a lot American don't like the government, but they are patriotic. To me even if I cast a vote to a government, I still should have a right to comment or criticize this government, even before foreigners. Let alone I was not given a right to vote.
And also using "Steven" does not mean anything. I believe over 90% of Chinese immigrants here have English name. This has nothing to do with one's believe and philosophy. Nor so whether or not one uses English or Chinese to communicate. Your implication in "I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you." is groundless.
As for CCTV versus BBC or CNN, let me ask our folks this question - where did you guys get to know Abu Grade prison? Katrina mishandling? Guantanamo prison? BBC and CNN, as well as all big media. They are the first one to disclose it. Is CCTV the first one to disclose SARS? Medias there are controlled by government. What else do you expect to hear from?
As Freedom and demacracy, to me it is also obvious - I can read anything. CNN and BBC distort truth? There are tons of others available. Do they all distort truth? If someday I believe all medias here distort truth, then I'd better ask myself if my brain is distorted. Unforturenately my poor fellow Chinese do not have this luxury to read medias from outside world. They are considered as dumb and not able to distinguish right and wrong.
天佑中华_我的祖国2008-04-07 06:22:20回复悄悄话
回复stevenw9的评论:
Steven, from your Christan name, I already know something. I have been in oversea for more than ten years, I still use my Chinese name.I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you.
People, especially some people already moved out of China, like to use Democracy or Freedowm these words, sounds like they don't know these words when they were in China,or they knew these words in China but were depressed too much until they are in a sign of relief when they are out of China. Then, Mr Steven, can you give me an example of how you don't have Democracy and freedom in China and how you enjoy Democracy and Freedowm in your living country? Did you ever stand in your living country's street and shouted loudly and scold the leader of the country to see how much democracy & Freedom you have compared with China?
Your questioned people on how true they have listened to real Tibetean poeple,how about you? Probably you listen to what western people say, am I right? Oh, what they say is true ! Yes, I am always searching CCTV for News, to you , that means what? Means I should stop and switch to CNN or other western media to not let my thought Brainstormed by CCTV, and get brainstormed by CNN or BBC?
I will tell my children about Tibet's History, be part of the education of Chinese History, whether Tibet belongs to Chinaor not, I will not discuss it, it is part of China's history, however, this is nothing to do with whether I support Democracy, Freedom, religious Freedom or not. These are totally two different things.
No need to ask us to wake up, if we are already outside, we have already waken up many years ago, it is not the time of waking up, it is the time to think, logically and wisely.
You claimed you love China,really? Oh, you loved a separated China. You loved a China that everything she does should get scolded by people that previously were, and even now are robbers? You loved a China that you sitting in front of your PC typing some words asking people not believe her? Come On, Steven, even if 99.9999% people believe what you said, I am the one who will say: Stopping saying you love China(Nobody will blame you if you say you don't love China), go and enjoy your Freedom and let other people have their own !!
To stevenw9: I believe Democracy is the best system in the world, but it doesn't mean it suits every country.
As you said, to free Tibet has nothing to do with most Chinese common life. Then what means a lot to them? I think a peaceful environment, earning good money and feeling secure are important. Violence are definately against those all.
If British colonists could ever have asked native Americans' opinion, we would not have to listen to a super powerful country to teach others what we should do everyday.
BTW, you are a Chinese, why don't you speak Chinese? I always feel strange and unconfortable to talk with a Chinese in English.
before I came here, I think Free Tibet is obvious, but after I've been here, I'm no longer sure if most Tibet want independent.
我只是一个普通的华人,热爱西藏,曾经在自己生命中最值得怀念的12年无数次的去过西藏,和西藏有过许多不解之缘。我至今都相信我在那里所看到和听到的是一个真实的西藏,与DLLM口中讲述的有很大的出入。在很多人眼中西藏是神圣和神秘的,可能一生都没有办法去亲自体验。真心的希望你能从这两个美国年轻人的口中和眼中能了解一个真实的西藏。
ellamoney2008-04-07 02:17:30回复悄悄话
回复stevenw9的评论:
你不配中国人这个称号,你是外国人的龟孙子!Have you ever been to China and Tibet?If not do not say anything like brainwashed by Chinese government.
How shameful you are .You do not derserve 'I am a Chinese'.You probabaly wish to dye your skin and be the son of bitch of your white boss!
I lived in London for 10 years and although I agree democracy is not always bad but I still think it is better for China to be run by Communist party.It is much better and avoid backwards and forwards regarding to develop China.You can see how is Taiwan now.Imagine if China such a hugh country practice so called democracy,it would be ruined by western countries in no time. Do not be naive!
Look at what they do in Iraq .Is that what they call democracy?!
stevenw92008-04-06 01:19:07回复悄悄话
可怜的中国人, 在中國大陸有言论自由吗?religious freedom? Not mentioned in Tibet. You are so brain-washed, even though you are out of China for so many years. Did you learn anything? Guess you still watch CCTV all day long. CNN may be not accurate. But there is thousands more TV stations.
What is freedom? What is respect for human beings? Guess you never learn anything. Not knowing what is right or wrong. Have any of you heard what Tibetan says? Until we hear what Tibetan freely express what they really feel from independent news resources, of course I will suspect they are mistreated, just like all those people inside China. What a pity, all 70 cable channels are the same from cctv at 8 pm news. They can never know anything different. They are brain-washed and blind-sided.
Whether Tibet belongs to China or not, will it affect your daily life? Probably not. But whether you support freedom of speech, respect for religious freedom, support for the weak, knowing what is right or wrong have everything to do with you!
Try to explain to your children because you believe Tibetan belongs to China, you support for the government to suppress their freedom of religion, speech, respect for human rights. You will be so shamed! Their little hearts know what is right or wrong!
Wake up Chinese, especially those out of China and now are enjoying freedom of speech. If you do not believe CNN, go to another news source. If you believe all those news resources from different countries, are the same from governments, for the same political reasons, you might as well go back to China to watch those 70 cable channels which show the same pictures.
I love China because I am a Chinese, but I love freedom more!
『”如果当时中国人团结一心协助日本人把国民党给推翻了,我们大家不就早过上好日子了吗?你看现在日本多好,要是那时候我们不抵抗,早就和日本合并了,我们早就成为发达国家了。“------让我再爱你一次』
以上根据你的理论,你还要思考啥?
Last part of your comment to Steven is regarding "love China". Steven claim that he loves China. That does not mean he cannot criticize some policy or doings of Chinese government. Those are two different things. Just like you hear a lot American don't like the government, but they are patriotic. To me even if I cast a vote to a government, I still should have a right to comment or criticize this government, even before foreigners. Let alone I was not given a right to vote.
And also using "Steven" does not mean anything. I believe over 90% of Chinese immigrants here have English name. This has nothing to do with one's believe and philosophy. Nor so whether or not one uses English or Chinese to communicate. Your implication in "I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you." is groundless.
As for CCTV versus BBC or CNN, let me ask our folks this question - where did you guys get to know Abu Grade prison? Katrina mishandling? Guantanamo prison? BBC and CNN, as well as all big media. They are the first one to disclose it. Is CCTV the first one to disclose SARS? Medias there are controlled by government. What else do you expect to hear from?
As Freedom and demacracy, to me it is also obvious - I can read anything. CNN and BBC distort truth? There are tons of others available. Do they all distort truth? If someday I believe all medias here distort truth, then I'd better ask myself if my brain is distorted. Unforturenately my poor fellow Chinese do not have this luxury to read medias from outside world. They are considered as dumb and not able to distinguish right and wrong.
众所周知,藏民们普遍认为毛泽东是菩萨;而自邓小平开始推行至今的反毛泽东否定毛泽东思想的方针政策,之于藏民是怎样的影响呐?离心离德这个词该怎么解释?
请问最后一个视频的歌是谁唱的?应该是韩红的天路的曲调,但不知歌者是谁,相当好听,应该是藏族。多谢!
我虽然只去过大西藏地区一次,包括甘南、阿坝、林芝、日喀则、拉萨等地。我的感受是在文化上汉藏没有很好的互动,两个民族的交流是很有限的,就连我们这种受过高等教育的人恐怕也没有几个人真正了解藏文化,更别说那些生活在教育尚不普及的一些大西藏地区的藏人们能对汉文化有什么认识了!
到底什么对西藏最好,可能还是应该多听听当地人的意见,不能以我们的立场和观点来强加在当地人身上!如果说连我这个汉人在西藏看到那些援建县城入口处耸立的汉式大牌坊都不舒服的话,那么当地人又会怎么想呢?
一个家庭主妇打手机给她丈夫,说是刚在电视上看到新闻,有一个疯子正在他上下班必经的高速公路上逆向行驶,提醒他小心。他老公回答说,哪止一个,他们都在逆向行驶。
我要说的是,当你觉得有这么多人被洗脑的时候,大概被洗脑的可能就是你自己。
我为中国祈祷。
Steven, from your Christan name, I already know something. I have been in oversea for more than ten years, I still use my Chinese name.I don't know you still can remember Chinese words and this is the reason I use English to communicate wih you.
People, especially some people already moved out of China, like to use Democracy or Freedowm these words, sounds like they don't know these words when they were in China,or they knew these words in China but were depressed too much until they are in a sign of relief when they are out of China. Then, Mr Steven, can you give me an example of how you don't have Democracy and freedom in China and how you enjoy Democracy and Freedowm in your living country? Did you ever stand in your living country's street and shouted loudly and scold the leader of the country to see how much democracy & Freedom you have compared with China?
Your questioned people on how true they have listened to real Tibetean poeple,how about you? Probably you listen to what western people say, am I right? Oh, what they say is true ! Yes, I am always searching CCTV for News, to you , that means what? Means I should stop and switch to CNN or other western media to not let my thought Brainstormed by CCTV, and get brainstormed by CNN or BBC?
I will tell my children about Tibet's History, be part of the education of Chinese History, whether Tibet belongs to Chinaor not, I will not discuss it, it is part of China's history, however, this is nothing to do with whether I support Democracy, Freedom, religious Freedom or not. These are totally two different things.
No need to ask us to wake up, if we are already outside, we have already waken up many years ago, it is not the time of waking up, it is the time to think, logically and wisely.
You claimed you love China,really? Oh, you loved a separated China. You loved a China that everything she does should get scolded by people that previously were, and even now are robbers? You loved a China that you sitting in front of your PC typing some words asking people not believe her? Come On, Steven, even if 99.9999% people believe what you said, I am the one who will say: Stopping saying you love China(Nobody will blame you if you say you don't love China), go and enjoy your Freedom and let other people have their own !!
To stevenw9: I believe Democracy is the best system in the world, but it doesn't mean it suits every country.
As you said, to free Tibet has nothing to do with most Chinese common life. Then what means a lot to them? I think a peaceful environment, earning good money and feeling secure are important. Violence are definately against those all.
If British colonists could ever have asked native Americans' opinion, we would not have to listen to a super powerful country to teach others what we should do everyday.
BTW, you are a Chinese, why don't you speak Chinese? I always feel strange and unconfortable to talk with a Chinese in English.
你没有听到或看到并不等于不存在。CCTV报道的你可以不相信,那建议你看看美国人拍的如何 Tibet Dairy - 西藏日记。如果你的英文好我建议你听英文,看看那两个美国人到底怎么说。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkprHNIItNU&feature=related
我印象最深的是在影片的最后JOHN said:
before I came here, I think Free Tibet is obvious, but after I've been here, I'm no longer sure if most Tibet want independent.
我只是一个普通的华人,热爱西藏,曾经在自己生命中最值得怀念的12年无数次的去过西藏,和西藏有过许多不解之缘。我至今都相信我在那里所看到和听到的是一个真实的西藏,与DLLM口中讲述的有很大的出入。在很多人眼中西藏是神圣和神秘的,可能一生都没有办法去亲自体验。真心的希望你能从这两个美国年轻人的口中和眼中能了解一个真实的西藏。
你英文真的需要好好练练了...看到你的英文程度,连苍天都落泪了...
you are shit, go die
你不配中国人这个称号,你是外国人的龟孙子!Have you ever been to China and Tibet?If not do not say anything like brainwashed by Chinese government.
How shameful you are .You do not derserve 'I am a Chinese'.You probabaly wish to dye your skin and be the son of bitch of your white boss!
I lived in London for 10 years and although I agree democracy is not always bad but I still think it is better for China to be run by Communist party.It is much better and avoid backwards and forwards regarding to develop China.You can see how is Taiwan now.Imagine if China such a hugh country practice so called democracy,it would be ruined by western countries in no time. Do not be naive!
Look at what they do in Iraq .Is that what they call democracy?!
不用去理会那些张口闭口意识形态的人,人都信自己想信的,何况这些人根本不在乎现实是什么样的,更不会在乎你的人权。之前吵吵嚷嚷达富尔,现在有西藏这个更好的舞台,谁tm还“关心”达富尔人民的死活
我跑了不少地方,各个教派的寺庙都去了,感觉到大家的生活是平稳的,各种宗教活动都进行着。头两天有一个藏族朋友陪我,给我介绍寺庙里的特色,带我见高僧活佛,要不然我去过了也不知道是怎么回事。
我拍的照片更像第二组,当然水平没他高。在中国、在美国,每个地方都可以看到脏乱差的地方,但是我不会专门去拍,因为我见到的大部分人都是过着平安的生活。
憨妹来看你了.多保重.
有空常回家看看, 父老乡情想你呀!!!!
What is freedom? What is respect for human beings? Guess you never learn anything. Not knowing what is right or wrong. Have any of you heard what Tibetan says? Until we hear what Tibetan freely express what they really feel from independent news resources, of course I will suspect they are mistreated, just like all those people inside China. What a pity, all 70 cable channels are the same from cctv at 8 pm news. They can never know anything different. They are brain-washed and blind-sided.
Whether Tibet belongs to China or not, will it affect your daily life? Probably not. But whether you support freedom of speech, respect for religious freedom, support for the weak, knowing what is right or wrong have everything to do with you!
Try to explain to your children because you believe Tibetan belongs to China, you support for the government to suppress their freedom of religion, speech, respect for human rights. You will be so shamed! Their little hearts know what is right or wrong!
Wake up Chinese, especially those out of China and now are enjoying freedom of speech. If you do not believe CNN, go to another news source. If you believe all those news resources from different countries, are the same from governments, for the same political reasons, you might as well go back to China to watch those 70 cable channels which show the same pictures.
I love China because I am a Chinese, but I love freedom more!
从中国摄影师的照片,我看到了,西藏虽然在物质财富上比不上很多发达的城市,但是人民的生活仍然非常得快乐和充实,从一张张笑脸,我们看到了对现在的满足和对未来的追求。
从美国摄影师的照片,我看到了,在所谓的“圣地”西藏,人民的生活是多么的贫穷和清苦。到处充斥着肮脏和丑陋。
看完中国摄影师的照片,我想有时间的话,我想到西藏去走一走。
看完美国摄影师的照片,我想除非实在是没有地方去了,否则我不会去西藏玩。
尽管我非常同意你的几张图片说明不了问题,但是往往西方媒体总是拿几张图片来说明问题!比如这次西藏的报道,我不列举了吧:)还有今天许多人还在用N多年前拍电影的武警手拿僧侣服的照片上做文章,那又是什么用心呢?他们不知道西藏问题是个严肃的问题?他们不知道一张照片不能说明什么问题?他们是不是都预设了政治立场了呢?又是谁不仅把西藏问题庸俗化,又试图把西藏问题国际化了呢?
相信大都数人都会理性的看待西藏问题,包括理性的看待这两组图片,从泉水等评论里可以看出来。谢谢你的评论,谢谢你的关注。也一并谢谢泉水等朋友,谢谢!
我從來都不懷疑有些人(東西方都有)在西藏問題上攪渾水,但僅僅根據幾張照片去斷定一個人的政治目的,實在是有泛政治化的感覺。其實,你在指責別人的照片有“政治預設”時,你自己也犯了同樣的錯誤:“猎奇的,看到的是落后和迷信;崇敬的,看到的是纯净和神奇。异心的,看到的是阴暗和弊端;挚爱的,看到的是快乐和希望”。西藏問題是一個嚴肅的課題,希望大家能以理性客觀冷靜的態度來對待,而不要把它庸俗化。
謝謝你對西藏問題的關注。
你说“姓美只展现生活多面体”就有点“逢中必反、逢美比赞”的嫌疑了:)如果较真儿的话(本来没这样想),姓美的这组图片(只有一张太血腥我没有贴),“展现生活的多面体”里,没有寺庙,没有诵经,只有美容美发,喇嘛经商,贫穷落后,崇拜马列,,,。
姓中的没有不承认姓美的眼中看到的是事实,“真实图片”,但是为姓美的“展现生活多面体”作了些补充,或许两组图片加在一起,更能“展现生活多面体”。网友“泉水”和“看蓝色的海”说的有一定的道理。
之于说到贫富悬殊社会矛盾,这是个不争的事实,我曾在以往的帖子多次提到,某种程度上政府都承认。但是解决这些矛盾需要智慧,需要改革,需要过程,当然越快越好。但靠暴力和动乱来解决,显然是不明智的。西方发达国家在工业革命初期直到前几十年,还不是一样?就是现在的许多民主的发展中国家,贫富悬殊社会矛盾激化,也一样存在!
之于说到“洪水”,如果当年没有姓美的哥儿们策反,如果今天没有姓美的老太太站在“道德的制高点”兴风作浪,怕是受到伤害的不会是这么多老百姓。谢谢你的关注:)
一并谢谢所有的评论,谢谢所有的来客,谢谢你们的关注。祝福西藏,祝福祖国!
两组图片都很好。中国人的稍微为美了一点,可能是摄影爱好者的原因。但美国人的很明显只用他的眼睛写实。
谢好贴。