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BEUDAUHE, China, Sept. 3, 2000
 Jiang Zemin discussed a wide range of topics during the interview with Wallace. (CBS)Quote  Jiang says that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability. |
(CBS) On the eve of his visit to the United States, China's president, Jiang Zemin, sat down for a rare interview with Mike Wallace.
In a wide-ranging and surprisingly frank interview, Jiang talked about many topics, including relations between the United States and China, Tiananmen Square and American morals.
The two met recently inside the presidential compound in the seaside resort of Beidaihe, in what Chinese officials say is the first visit there by a Western television news crew.
Jiang, the leader of one of every five people on the planet, has not been interviewed for U.S. television in more than a decade. Wallace's interview will air two days before Jiang is scheduled to visit the United States.
Recently, one of China's government newspapers, The China Daily, called the United States, "a threat to world peace." Asked if he agrees with that assessment, Jiang treaded lightly.
"Candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not [the United States] tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world," he said. "But today I want to convey a nice message to the American people, so I don't want to use too many tough words in our talk."
Asked about the presidential election, and future U.S.-Chinese relations, Jiang said that he has a lot of friends among both parties.
"So you gave money to both their campaigns?" Wallace asked.
"Are you just joking?" Jiang responded. "We have never done such things. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties, and I believe whoever becomes president will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected they will be friendly. I only hope that's true."
Prior to the interview, Jiang had agreed to give short answers so the two men could cover more ground. When Wallace reminded him of that, a smiling Jiang was ready with a reply, pointing out that his answers had also been long. "I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question."
Beidaihe, the site of the interview, has been called China's Camp David. Beidaihe is where the country's leaders meet in private every August to develop their plans for the coming year. The president agreed to speak candidly with 60 Minutes, emphasizing that he wants better relations with America.
"I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to the American people," he said.
Jiang said that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability: "Our relations have experienced wind, rain, and sometimes clouds r even dark clouds. However, sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States."
"That's spoken like a real politician," Wallace responded. "There's no candor in it."
"I don't think politician is a very nice word," Jiang said.
"No, it's not a nice word," Wallace said. "It is a diplomatic word in this case."
Although Jiang is gregarious and likes attention, he has not given an extended interview to an American television reporter for 10 years. He says this is partly because Americans refuse to believe that the vast majority of Chinese are actually satisfied with one-party rule. Jiang, in fact, disagreed strongly when Wallace called China a dictatorship.
"Your way of describing what things are like in China is as absurd as what the Arabian Nights may sound like," Jiang said. "The National Peoples Congress selects the Central Committee of the Communist Party and the Central Committee has a Politburo. And the Politburo has a standing committee of which I'm a member. And no decision is made unless all members agree."
Wallace asked Jiang if he admired the courage of the student who stood down the tank during the student uprising in Tiananmen Square.
"He was never arrested," Jiang said. "I don't know where he is now. Looking at the picture I know he definitely had his own ideas."
"You have not answered the question, Mr. President," Wallace said. "Did a part of Jiang Zemin admire his courage?"
"I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect every citizen's right to freely express his wishes and desires," Jiang said. "But I do not favor any flagrant opposition to government actions during an emergency. The tank stopped and did not run the young man down."
"I'm not talking about the tank," Wallace said. "I'm talking about that man's heart, that man's courage, that man, that lonely man, standing against that."
Wallace then mentioned that Jiang himself had been a student protestor in Shanghai, during World War II. Was there any parallel?
"In the 1989 disturbance we truly understood the passion of students who were calling for greater democracy and freedom," Jiang said. "In fact, we have always been working to improve our system of democracy. But we could not possibly allow people with ulterior motives to use the students to overthrow the government under the pretext of democracy and freedom."
A month after Tiananmen, Jiang wrote a speech in which he said, "Corruption is growing. If all our party and our government organs use that power to seek material benefits, isn't this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?"
Wallace pointed out that the Tiananmen demonstrators had also been protesting against corruption. Had they had an effect on the Party, Wallace asked
"I hate corruption," Jiang said. "You are right that during the 1989 disturbance students were changing slogans against corruption, so on this specific point the Party shares the same position as the students."
As an aside, and to underline his credentials as a student demonstrator in times past, the president himself sang a protest song he had used back in 1943 against Japanese troops who were occupying parts of China: "Arise Fellow Students to Defend the Motherland."
The president's aides suggested it would be unfair to show pictures of the violence at Tiananmen Square because, they say, Jiang Zemin had nothing to do with it. But they were glad to give 60 Minutes pictures of their embassy in Belgrade, which had been demolished by American bombers, during NATO's air war last year.
When asked if he believed that the United States purposely bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Jiang answered obliquely.
"The United States has state-of-the-art technology," he said. "So all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing."
"The identification marks of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss," he continued. "So why has there been such an incident? It is still a question. But we have decided to look forward, to improve China-U.S. relations."
Afterward, the U.S. government had tried to convince China that the bombing had been a horrible mistake.
"President Clinton apologized to me for the bombing, many times, on the telephone," Jiang said. "I told him, since you represent Americans and I Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue."
Aug. 31, 2000
In a wide-ranging and surprisingly frank interview, Jiang talked about many topics, including relations between the United States and China, Tiananmen Square and American morals.
The two met recently inside the presidential compound in the seaside resort of Beidaihe, in what Chinese officials say is the first visit there by a Western television news crew.
Jiang, the leader of one of every five people on the planet, has not been interviewed for U.S. television in more than a decade. Wallace's interview will air two days before Jiang is scheduled to visit the United States.
Recently, one of China's government newspapers, The China Daily, called the United States, "a threat to world peace." Asked if he agrees with that assessment, Jiang treaded lightly.
"Candidly speaking, maybe it is because of the economic power and leading edge in science and technology that the United States enjoys, that more often than not [the United States] tends to overestimate itself and its position in the world," he said. "But today I want to convey a nice message to the American people, so I don't want to use too many tough words in our talk."
Asked about the presidential election, and future U.S.-Chinese relations, Jiang said that he has a lot of friends among both parties.
"So you gave money to both their campaigns?" Wallace asked.
"Are you just joking?" Jiang responded. "We have never done such things. I have read the campaign platforms of both parties, and I believe whoever becomes president will try to improve the friendly relations between China and the United States for this is in the strategic interest of the whole world. Someone asked me not to pay attention to unfriendly remarks candidates might make about China during the campaign because once elected they will be friendly. I only hope that's true."
Prior to the interview, Jiang had agreed to give short answers so the two men could cover more ground. When Wallace reminded him of that, a smiling Jiang was ready with a reply, pointing out that his answers had also been long. "I think my answer is roughly the same length as your question."
Beidaihe, the site of the interview, has been called China's Camp David. Beidaihe is where the country's leaders meet in private every August to develop their plans for the coming year. The president agreed to speak candidly with 60 Minutes, emphasizing that he wants better relations with America.
"I hope to convey through your program my best wishes to the American people," he said.
Jiang said that relations between the two countries are, on the whole, good. But he compared Chinese-U.S. relations to "nature," because of its variability: "Our relations have experienced wind, rain, and sometimes clouds r even dark clouds. However, sometimes it clears up. We all sincerely hope to build a constructive partnership between China and the United States."
"That's spoken like a real politician," Wallace responded. "There's no candor in it."
"I don't think politician is a very nice word," Jiang said.
"No, it's not a nice word," Wallace said. "It is a diplomatic word in this case."
Although Jiang is gregarious and likes attention, he has not given an extended interview to an American television reporter for 10 years. He says this is partly because Americans refuse to believe that the vast majority of Chinese are actually satisfied with one-party rule. Jiang, in fact, disagreed strongly when Wallace called China a dictatorship.
"Your way of describing what things are like in China is as absurd as what the Arabian Nights may sound like," Jiang said. "The National Peoples Congress selects the Central Committee of the Communist Party and the Central Committee has a Politburo. And the Politburo has a standing committee of which I'm a member. And no decision is made unless all members agree."
Wallace asked Jiang if he admired the courage of the student who stood down the tank during the student uprising in Tiananmen Square.
"He was never arrested," Jiang said. "I don't know where he is now. Looking at the picture I know he definitely had his own ideas."
"You have not answered the question, Mr. President," Wallace said. "Did a part of Jiang Zemin admire his courage?"
"I know what you are driving at, but what I want to emphasize is that we fully respect every citizen's right to freely express his wishes and desires," Jiang said. "But I do not favor any flagrant opposition to government actions during an emergency. The tank stopped and did not run the young man down."
"I'm not talking about the tank," Wallace said. "I'm talking about that man's heart, that man's courage, that man, that lonely man, standing against that."
Wallace then mentioned that Jiang himself had been a student protestor in Shanghai, during World War II. Was there any parallel?
"In the 1989 disturbance we truly understood the passion of students who were calling for greater democracy and freedom," Jiang said. "In fact, we have always been working to improve our system of democracy. But we could not possibly allow people with ulterior motives to use the students to overthrow the government under the pretext of democracy and freedom."
A month after Tiananmen, Jiang wrote a speech in which he said, "Corruption is growing. If all our party and our government organs use that power to seek material benefits, isn't this just like fleecing the people in broad daylight?"
Wallace pointed out that the Tiananmen demonstrators had also been protesting against corruption. Had they had an effect on the Party, Wallace asked
"I hate corruption," Jiang said. "You are right that during the 1989 disturbance students were changing slogans against corruption, so on this specific point the Party shares the same position as the students."
As an aside, and to underline his credentials as a student demonstrator in times past, the president himself sang a protest song he had used back in 1943 against Japanese troops who were occupying parts of China: "Arise Fellow Students to Defend the Motherland."
The president's aides suggested it would be unfair to show pictures of the violence at Tiananmen Square because, they say, Jiang Zemin had nothing to do with it. But they were glad to give 60 Minutes pictures of their embassy in Belgrade, which had been demolished by American bombers, during NATO's air war last year.
When asked if he believed that the United States purposely bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Jiang answered obliquely.
"The United States has state-of-the-art technology," he said. "So all the explanations that they have given us for what they call a mistaken bombing are absolutely unconvincing."
"The identification marks of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were too clear for people to miss," he continued. "So why has there been such an incident? It is still a question. But we have decided to look forward, to improve China-U.S. relations."
Afterward, the U.S. government had tried to convince China that the bombing had been a horrible mistake.
"President Clinton apologized to me for the bombing, many times, on the telephone," Jiang said. "I told him, since you represent Americans and I Chinese, it would be impossible for us to reach total agreement on this issue."
Aug. 31, 2000
 China's president, Jiang Zemin, and Mike Wallace talk during their interview. (CBS)Quote "Each country should have its own system because our countries have different cultures and historic traditions, and different levels of education and economic development." Jiang Zemin |
(CBS) In his recent interview, President Jiang told Wallace that accused spy Wen Ho Lee was not a spy for China.
"I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee's case," Jiang said during the interview. "But we do know that he is a scientist."
It is not strange, Jiang said, that Lee came to China and talked to Chinese scientists. "It's just as normal as some Chinese scientists travelling abroad," he said. "Allow me to quote a Chinese proverb which goes, 'If you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge.' We don't know what political motives are behind it. Today the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a renowned scientist."
When Wallace said that Jiang seemed nervous for the first time in the conversation, Jiang laughed, adding that he was not nervous and he asked Wallace whether he thinks Wen Ho Lee is a spy. When Wallace declined to answer, Jiang chuckled some more.
Years ago when Jiang was a middle-school student learning English, he had studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. When he was a teacher, he used the Gettysburg Address in his course.
Wallace asked him about this, and Jiang offered to recite part of it.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal," Jiang recited from memory.
Wallace asked him why he learned part that so well.
"I focused on the words, 'All men are created equal,'" Jiang said. "This had a great influence on students when I was young. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described still remains the goal of American leaders today."
"Especially the last paragraph, 'The government of the people by the people and for the people shall never perish from the earth,'" he added.
Wallace then asked Jiang about democracy: "Why is it that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don't trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? "
"I am also an elected leader, though we have a different electoral system," Jiang said. "Each country should have its own system because our countries have different cultures and historic traditions, and different levels of education and economic development."
Jiang was chosen by the top leaders of the Communist Party. Public elections occur only in some villages and small towns, and candidates must either be members of the Communist Party or run as independents.
Wallace asked Jiang why China had a one-party state. "Why must we have opposition parties?" Jiang responded. "You are trying to apply the American values and the American political system to the whole world. But that is not very wise."
"Let me be frank," Jiang said. "China and the United States differ greatly in terms of our values. You Americans always use your values in makig judgments about the political situation in other countries. We want to learn from the West about science and technology and how to manage the economy, but this must be combined with specific conditions here. That's how we have made great progress in the last 20 years."
China's standard of living has been rising dramatically. In China, as in America, the economy largely determines the level of the people's satisfaction with their government. Jiang maintains that the vast majority of Chinese believe a strong one-party rule is the best way to hold the huge population together and to keep the economy growing. Stability is the top priority, sometimes at the expense of human rights.
Wallace asked him about human rights and about the Chinese government's persecution of the religious group Falun Gong.
"Their leader, Li Hongzhi, claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ," Jiang said. "Can you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and that the Earth was going to explode. In fact what he says are just fallacies to deceive people. But as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations, we concluded that Falun Gong is an evil cult."
Jiang pointed out that no Falun Gong followers have ever been sentenced to death.
But 26 of them have reportedly died in police custody.
Jiang told 60 Minutes the Falun Gong has driven thousands of its members to commit suicide.
The Falun Gong said that's ridiculous - that it does not encourage suicide and that it's still going strong despite the Chinese government's efforts to quash it.
Asked about the Chinese government's persecution of Christians, Jiang said that Christians have not been persecuted in China, and that the constitution protects religious freedom, including Christianity. "But Falun Gong is a cult," he said. "It is totally different from Christianity."
Jiang has always favored tough government controls of the press. "The press," he said, "should be a mouthpiece of the Party."
"I think all countries and parties must have their own publications to publicize their ideas," Jiang told Wallace. "We do have freedom of the press, but such freedom should be subordinate to and serve the interests of the nation. How can you allow such freedom to damage the national interests?"
Wallace asked Jiang why it had blocked certain Internet sites, including the BBC's and the Washington Post’s.
"We hope people will learn a lot of useful things from the Internet," Jiang said. "However, sometimes there is also unhealthy material - especially pornography on the Internet - which does great harm to our youngsters."
Wallace pointed out that the BBC and The Washington Post sites did not have pornography. "They might be banned because of some of their political new reports," Jiang said. "We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China's development."
China's previous leader, Deng Xiaoping, once said, "to get rich is glorious." Jiang said that while this outlook does allow some people to become wealthy before others, "The ultimate objective is prosperity for all."
Wallace asked him if he thought America was more decadent than China.
"Let me put it this way," Jiang said. "Due to many differences between our countries in historical traditions, ways of life, religious beliefs, etc., things you don't regard as decadent in the States, we may regard as decadent in China. That's why we have to be very selective."
When he travels to America, Jiang will meet with American business leaders to urge them to increase their investments in China. Corporate America has long lusted after China's billion-buyer market, but China still sells a lot more to the United States than America sells to that country.
In effort to change that, the White House has said that if the U.S. Senate approves permanent normal trade relations with China, as the House already has, that would force China to reduce tariffs and trade barriers, and therfore to buy more American goods.
Jiang wants normal trade relations, too, and he ended the interview by underscoring that point.
"I'm convinced that this interview will further promote the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples," said Jiang, who told Wallace that he admires America. "I want to promote mutual understanding between our two peoples."
"I can tell you frankly, China was not in any way involved in Wen Ho Lee's case," Jiang said during the interview. "But we do know that he is a scientist."
It is not strange, Jiang said, that Lee came to China and talked to Chinese scientists. "It's just as normal as some Chinese scientists travelling abroad," he said. "Allow me to quote a Chinese proverb which goes, 'If you are out to condemn someone, you can always trump up a charge.' We don't know what political motives are behind it. Today the Chinese still see Wen Ho Lee as a renowned scientist."
When Wallace said that Jiang seemed nervous for the first time in the conversation, Jiang laughed, adding that he was not nervous and he asked Wallace whether he thinks Wen Ho Lee is a spy. When Wallace declined to answer, Jiang chuckled some more.
Years ago when Jiang was a middle-school student learning English, he had studied the speeches of Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. When he was a teacher, he used the Gettysburg Address in his course.
Wallace asked him about this, and Jiang offered to recite part of it.
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal," Jiang recited from memory.
Wallace asked him why he learned part that so well.
"I focused on the words, 'All men are created equal,'" Jiang said. "This had a great influence on students when I was young. And I think what Abraham Lincoln described still remains the goal of American leaders today."
"Especially the last paragraph, 'The government of the people by the people and for the people shall never perish from the earth,'" he added.
Wallace then asked Jiang about democracy: "Why is it that Americans can elect their national leaders, but you apparently don't trust the Chinese people to elect your national leaders? "
"I am also an elected leader, though we have a different electoral system," Jiang said. "Each country should have its own system because our countries have different cultures and historic traditions, and different levels of education and economic development."
Jiang was chosen by the top leaders of the Communist Party. Public elections occur only in some villages and small towns, and candidates must either be members of the Communist Party or run as independents.
Wallace asked Jiang why China had a one-party state. "Why must we have opposition parties?" Jiang responded. "You are trying to apply the American values and the American political system to the whole world. But that is not very wise."
"Let me be frank," Jiang said. "China and the United States differ greatly in terms of our values. You Americans always use your values in makig judgments about the political situation in other countries. We want to learn from the West about science and technology and how to manage the economy, but this must be combined with specific conditions here. That's how we have made great progress in the last 20 years."
China's standard of living has been rising dramatically. In China, as in America, the economy largely determines the level of the people's satisfaction with their government. Jiang maintains that the vast majority of Chinese believe a strong one-party rule is the best way to hold the huge population together and to keep the economy growing. Stability is the top priority, sometimes at the expense of human rights.
Wallace asked him about human rights and about the Chinese government's persecution of the religious group Falun Gong.
"Their leader, Li Hongzhi, claims to be the reincarnation of the chief Buddha, and also a reincarnated Jesus Christ," Jiang said. "Can you believe that? He said that doomsday was about to come and that the Earth was going to explode. In fact what he says are just fallacies to deceive people. But as a result of his preaching, many families were broken and many lives were lost. So after careful deliberations, we concluded that Falun Gong is an evil cult."
Jiang pointed out that no Falun Gong followers have ever been sentenced to death.
But 26 of them have reportedly died in police custody.
Jiang told 60 Minutes the Falun Gong has driven thousands of its members to commit suicide.
The Falun Gong said that's ridiculous - that it does not encourage suicide and that it's still going strong despite the Chinese government's efforts to quash it.
Asked about the Chinese government's persecution of Christians, Jiang said that Christians have not been persecuted in China, and that the constitution protects religious freedom, including Christianity. "But Falun Gong is a cult," he said. "It is totally different from Christianity."
Jiang has always favored tough government controls of the press. "The press," he said, "should be a mouthpiece of the Party."
"I think all countries and parties must have their own publications to publicize their ideas," Jiang told Wallace. "We do have freedom of the press, but such freedom should be subordinate to and serve the interests of the nation. How can you allow such freedom to damage the national interests?"
Wallace asked Jiang why it had blocked certain Internet sites, including the BBC's and the Washington Post’s.
"We hope people will learn a lot of useful things from the Internet," Jiang said. "However, sometimes there is also unhealthy material - especially pornography on the Internet - which does great harm to our youngsters."
Wallace pointed out that the BBC and The Washington Post sites did not have pornography. "They might be banned because of some of their political new reports," Jiang said. "We need to be selective. We hope to restrict as much as possible information not conducive to China's development."
China's previous leader, Deng Xiaoping, once said, "to get rich is glorious." Jiang said that while this outlook does allow some people to become wealthy before others, "The ultimate objective is prosperity for all."
Wallace asked him if he thought America was more decadent than China.
"Let me put it this way," Jiang said. "Due to many differences between our countries in historical traditions, ways of life, religious beliefs, etc., things you don't regard as decadent in the States, we may regard as decadent in China. That's why we have to be very selective."
When he travels to America, Jiang will meet with American business leaders to urge them to increase their investments in China. Corporate America has long lusted after China's billion-buyer market, but China still sells a lot more to the United States than America sells to that country.
In effort to change that, the White House has said that if the U.S. Senate approves permanent normal trade relations with China, as the House already has, that would force China to reduce tariffs and trade barriers, and therfore to buy more American goods.
Jiang wants normal trade relations, too, and he ended the interview by underscoring that point.
"I'm convinced that this interview will further promote the friendship and mutual understanding between our two peoples," said Jiang, who told Wallace that he admires America. "I want to promote mutual understanding between our two peoples."
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