LTG2006-03-11 11:05:26回复悄悄话
very moved by your sincere discussion though it is hard for me to say things just because i am also in discussion....
but i just want you all know how much i enjoyed reading your thoughts and ideas....
知凡2006-03-10 23:50:46回复悄悄话
“poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....”
“I write for myself, you read for yourself…” 大家共鸣的是poetry/art，畅所欲言，借“题”（诗歌）发挥，我常常受你们的启发有些想法就说出来，听到别人说了什么，我再想再说，我没有什么顾忌，说的都是我个人想说的关于poetry/art的直话。。。很开心你与我有共鸣。。。
其实我上次的留言是因为受你们的启发，对你提出的疑问有我自己的回答，你读到我的答案了吗？
“我却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案”，我的回答是人生没有一个答案，“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
我看到你的博客里北岛舒婷的《一切》《这也是一切》，我很理解，因为我也曾经历过这样的思考，我的博客里也曾转贴过这两首诗歌，但是我加了一首作舟的“WALKING THROUGH AN EMPTY CITY”，对我来说，我是三首诗放在一起思考的。。。北岛舒婷的诗里都是判断句，从我现在的思想来说，人生没有判断没有结论，天人合一，宇宙广阔无垠充满奇妙，谁能告诉我什么是什么，我自己发现和寻觅。。。北岛的十四句排比构成强大的震撼力，但我很少能被人的“强词夺理”给震撼住，我能感受和思考自己说服自己却不易被人说服，Evolve/Involve/Resolve”，所以我喜欢读给我带来感觉和灵感的诗歌，和你一样，作舟的诗歌很对我的胃口。。。我感受作舟的诗歌，喜欢作舟用的“EMPTY CITY”，“空”是智慧。。。空的智慧我领悟了很久。。。我无法传达我领悟的空的智慧给你，因为我也说不清，可我可以给你打一个比方，将“悟空”，领会成孙悟空，小时候我很喜欢孙悟空，因为孙悟空会七十二变，我多希望我也有七十二变的本领，而且我最想变成一个大美女，不仅仅如此，有了七十二变的本领，我还可以实现很多的愿望。。。现在我理解的孙悟空和小时候理解的有所不同，七十二变我理解成想像力，人生境界可以不断地重生和成长，而且孙悟空有紧箍咒，孙悟空好像也是感性与理性的完美结合呢，所以古人真的是很智慧，于是我领悟空，学习孙悟空七十二变的本领。。。其实这只是一个比方一个适合我自己的比方，我想说的是“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.”相信我自己。。。
no worries!! i am sure friends here are not talking about anything personal ... at least, that's how i feel....we are interested in poetry/art, etc... right?
:)
i always feel good about posting here because of friends like all of you.... i have seen too many meaningless and immature forums where people are good at nothing but wasting their time.....
i have learned a lot from you guys.....plus, how can one measure the joy we get from poetry/art/music? such as sd's songs....
Two girls discover
the secret of life
in a sudden line of
poetry.
I who don't know the
secret wrote
the line. They
told me
(through a third person)
they had found it
but not what it was
not even
what line it was. No doubt
by now, more than a week
later, they have
in other
happenings. And for
wanting to know it,
for
assuming there is
such a secret, yes,
for that
most of all.
forgotten
the secret,
the line, the name of
the poem. I love them
for finding what
I can't find,
and for loving me
for the line I wrote,
and for forgetting it
so that
a thousand times, till death
finds them, they may
discover it again, in other
lines
Agree with z.z.'s
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
that's what poetry is for . . .
地中海人鱼2006-03-10 12:38:43回复悄悄话
I write for myself, you read for yourself, that is exactly what I am always thinking.
...used to like 徐小凤....her voice was unique in some ways, i thought....
thank you, sd, for sharing such a classic!!!! and providing a different voice!!
zf: ...作为一个读者，我不想说谁的诗“更”怎样。。。我只喜欢谈感受....
i appreciate your open mind and honesty as always.....and thank you for sharing your 感受.....
please do not compare my poetry with others....that is not the reason i write....i write "for myself"....:) right? i remeber saying that before....
so, "you" also "read for yourself"....!!!
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
i feel everybody here is talking about or sround the same things.....
:)
cheers!!!!
知凡2006-03-10 08:48:44回复悄悄话
除了作舟的诗歌，我未曾细读其他各位诗人的诗歌，昨日受你们“比较文学”态度的影响，作为一个读者，我不想说谁的诗“更”怎样。。。我只喜欢谈感受，因为我相信自己的感受，而不是任何思想的束缚或其他个人的局限来判断，如果谈诗我常谈的是我个人的感受，这是我的"the sense of 自由"。。。我最大的感受是，作舟诗歌与你们诗歌的最大不同是他的诗歌给我的感受是他过的不只一生，他可以不断重生，可以永远年轻。。。我所感受到的是作舟诗歌里层出不穷的创造力，感觉，灵感。。。等等这些我喜欢的Human Being的特质。。。也是他与mostpeople的最大不同。。。
“我却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案”，小人鱼，你寻求的是一生的答案还是你对自己的信仰，相信你可以在一生中度过很多的人生的人生答案？如果是，没有什么是什么，在作舟诗歌的思索里“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.“
I am not "瞎":), I always like to read "NEW POEM"s written by Human Beings...
LTG2006-03-09 17:30:09回复悄悄话
"肉体",灵魂,精神 = A human being; 灵魂,精神 without "肉体", what's that???
::
it should be something inhuman, i.e., a beautiful tree, a majestic eagle, a lovely dolphin, a loyal dog, a funny pussycat, a clever monkey, a hardworking cow, etc., etc...
:))
"It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water..."
yessssssssss .... water in various forms ....some sweet, some bitter, some spicy....
The Beauty can be from tears as well as from laughter.
Poetry does not answer, but guide us to look inward. We are puzzled by life, we struggle, we think, we listen, We're enlightened, we're happy, then we can pass the happiness to people around us. . .
what's the purpose of life? Happiness from heart. Easy, but not easy.
I am glad that we gather here to talk about something which we may not be able to share in our real life.
Write! Express! Cherish! & Celebrate!
"You better slow down.
Don't dance so fast.
Time is short.
The music won't last. "
by a terminally ill young girl in a New York Hospital
ZZ's living room has new guest now. :) Should have more different voices. :))
I'll continue to be an audience as I always was...:)
Have a nice chat!
知凡2006-03-09 13:21:30回复悄悄话
律周, thanks for sharing your sincere thoughts....and your kindness to my "童言无忌":)
影云, I totally agree what you said... thank you for your kind feedback always...
影云2006-03-09 10:58:20回复悄悄话
No standard measurement for poetry/art . . . so feel good for whatever you feel . . . the world is full of wonders (in all the forms, from the invisible to the unimaginable) and we don’t have to feel all to “prove” we’re good . . . and neither a poem needs all the images in it to be great!
When I say mountains and ocean, I mean the feelings, even feelings behind feelings, not mere images. zz’s poems are spiritual and enlightening which does not mean he does not the struggle or pains for life; instead, he seeks for how to live the fullest of life. His poems are lightness born out of heaviness. lz’s poems seemingly focus on the outside world, but the feelings hidden his poems are deep.
The way we express ourselves may have something to do with our life experiences.
律周, that's why you said: "诗歌是条不错的船,水能载舟亦能覆舟."??????
but many times, I can feel 山 when I see 海; I can feel 海 when I see 山...and I can feel other skys between 山 and 海......I don't know why?
I think this is my way of reading poetry and observing this world...
I agree yy: "诗本身就是思索".... and I really like the poems such as ZZ's "Each the different, Each the same" and many others....Li-Young Lee "Every Circle Wider"....etc. because I can feel they are thinking so deep......touched my deep heart...
but i just want you all know how much i enjoyed reading your thoughts and ideas....
小美人鱼，
谢谢你诚恳的交流，我说话有些直率，所以我喜欢诗歌，因为诗歌的“purity”，心中没有顾忌，我就可以畅所欲言，我就可以“不耻瞎说”:))感觉到“自由”的快乐，对我来说，我愿意参加讨论最希望能和大家的思想火花碰撞，引发我的思考，获得我的疑问的答案和更有意思的疑问。。。“与君一席话，胜读十年书”，我在作舟双壁轩里“混”了一年多，我可是思想进步不小:))
“I write for myself, you read for yourself…” 大家共鸣的是poetry/art，畅所欲言，借“题”（诗歌）发挥，我常常受你们的启发有些想法就说出来，听到别人说了什么，我再想再说，我没有什么顾忌，说的都是我个人想说的关于poetry/art的直话。。。很开心你与我有共鸣。。。
其实我上次的留言是因为受你们的启发，对你提出的疑问有我自己的回答，你读到我的答案了吗？
“我却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案”，我的回答是人生没有一个答案，“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
我看到你的博客里北岛舒婷的《一切》《这也是一切》，我很理解，因为我也曾经历过这样的思考，我的博客里也曾转贴过这两首诗歌，但是我加了一首作舟的“WALKING THROUGH AN EMPTY CITY”，对我来说，我是三首诗放在一起思考的。。。北岛舒婷的诗里都是判断句，从我现在的思想来说，人生没有判断没有结论，天人合一，宇宙广阔无垠充满奇妙，谁能告诉我什么是什么，我自己发现和寻觅。。。北岛的十四句排比构成强大的震撼力，但我很少能被人的“强词夺理”给震撼住，我能感受和思考自己说服自己却不易被人说服，Evolve/Involve/Resolve”，所以我喜欢读给我带来感觉和灵感的诗歌，和你一样，作舟的诗歌很对我的胃口。。。我感受作舟的诗歌，喜欢作舟用的“EMPTY CITY”，“空”是智慧。。。空的智慧我领悟了很久。。。我无法传达我领悟的空的智慧给你，因为我也说不清，可我可以给你打一个比方，将“悟空”，领会成孙悟空，小时候我很喜欢孙悟空，因为孙悟空会七十二变，我多希望我也有七十二变的本领，而且我最想变成一个大美女，不仅仅如此，有了七十二变的本领，我还可以实现很多的愿望。。。现在我理解的孙悟空和小时候理解的有所不同，七十二变我理解成想像力，人生境界可以不断地重生和成长，而且孙悟空有紧箍咒，孙悟空好像也是感性与理性的完美结合呢，所以古人真的是很智慧，于是我领悟空，学习孙悟空七十二变的本领。。。其实这只是一个比方一个适合我自己的比方，我想说的是“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.”相信我自己。。。
老实说，我一本哲学书没读过，都是道听途说，但读作舟的诗歌，可以说我在他的诗歌里获得了不少人生智慧，哲思和艺术的享受。。。至少那是我读到的，而且诗歌带给我的感觉与灵感，使我思考使我领悟。。。
“我写我的，你读你的”，我谈的是关于艺术和诗歌给我的启发，原谅我对着你“不耻瞎说”。。。:)
no worries!! i am sure friends here are not talking about anything personal ... at least, that's how i feel....we are interested in poetry/art, etc... right?
:)
i always feel good about posting here because of friends like all of you.... i have seen too many meaningless and immature forums where people are good at nothing but wasting their time.....
i have learned a lot from you guys.....plus, how can one measure the joy we get from poetry/art/music? such as sd's songs....
:)
thanks, y.y., for the nice poem from D. L.!!
The Secret
Two girls discover
the secret of life
in a sudden line of
poetry.
I who don't know the
secret wrote
the line. They
told me
(through a third person)
they had found it
but not what it was
not even
what line it was. No doubt
by now, more than a week
later, they have
in other
happenings. And for
wanting to know it,
for
assuming there is
such a secret, yes,
for that
most of all.
forgotten
the secret,
the line, the name of
the poem. I love them
for finding what
I can't find,
and for loving me
for the line I wrote,
and for forgetting it
so that
a thousand times, till death
finds them, they may
discover it again, in other
lines
Agree with z.z.'s
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
that's what poetry is for . . .
“我”却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案--- 律周的诗歌传达到我的眼睛里的就是这样的印象。可能我有点是这样的人，所以从诗句里看到了诗人这样的影像。我很小就开始读哲学书了，一本“时间简史”作了满满的笔记。经常时不时地想，生与死，生命，生活，人，时间，宇宙，头晕脑涨。他们都说，多傻呀，想这些有什么用？
作舟的诗歌是我在WXC和万维(其它网站很少去)读到的最好的作品，很对我胃口。知凡对ZZ诗歌的见解也正是我的感受。生活，体验，幻想，梦境，现实，思索，ZZ诗歌是理性和感性的完美结合。别晕。
诗歌没有绝对标准。同样的作品对每个人的感受都因了各自的性情，经历而不同。这个说起来就长了。。。我一直赞成，比较感受，比较诗歌传达的东西，比较读者接纳的东西，而不要比较诗歌。
不过到目前为止没有过比较呀。顶多是一个人读不同作者的作品产生的不同感受而已。
我怎么还是一天只能发一个贴呀。以前按照YY说的过10分钟间隔可以发一个贴，现在连这个也不能够了。快反馈。
新月如钩
往事如梦
梦境何求
人隔千里
星已稠
月色朦朦
夜未尽
寒灯不明
独坐孤零
人隔千里
遥问
终无凭
明月传信
寄我片纸儿
慰离情
...used to like 徐小凤....her voice was unique in some ways, i thought....
thank you, sd, for sharing such a classic!!!! and providing a different voice!!
zf: ...作为一个读者，我不想说谁的诗“更”怎样。。。我只喜欢谈感受....
i appreciate your open mind and honesty as always.....and thank you for sharing your 感受.....
please do not compare my poetry with others....that is not the reason i write....i write "for myself"....:) right? i remeber saying that before....
so, "you" also "read for yourself"....!!!
poetry is like water...it can be contained by vessels of different shapes, but the important element is the "purity" of the poem, not the "purity" as in Puritanism, but the purity that can enrich the soul.....
i feel everybody here is talking about or sround the same things.....
:)
cheers!!!!
“我却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案”，小人鱼，你寻求的是一生的答案还是你对自己的信仰，相信你可以在一生中度过很多的人生的人生答案？如果是，没有什么是什么，在作舟诗歌的思索里“Always the beautiful answer who asks a more beautiful question。。。”
“We can never be born enough. We are human beings;for whom birth is a supremely welcome mystery,the mystery of growing:which happens only and whenever we are faithful to ourselves.“
more later...
"不需要那易碎伤感的心":)
明月千里寄相思
原唱：徐小凤
夜色茫茫照四周
天边新月如钩
回忆往事恍如梦
重寻梦境何处求
人隔千里路悠悠
未曾遥问星已稠
请明月带问候
思念的人儿泪长流
月色朦朦照四周
夜未尽周遭寂寞宁静
桌上寒灯光不明
伴我独坐苦孤零
人隔千里无音讯
欲待遥问终无凭
请明月代传信
寄我片纸儿慰离情
I am not "瞎":), I always like to read "NEW POEM"s written by Human Beings...
::
it should be something inhuman, i.e., a beautiful tree, a majestic eagle, a lovely dolphin, a loyal dog, a funny pussycat, a clever monkey, a hardworking cow, etc., etc...
:))
"It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water..."
yessssssssss .... water in various forms ....some sweet, some bitter, some spicy....
:))
The Beauty can be from tears as well as from laughter.
Poetry does not answer, but guide us to look inward. We are puzzled by life, we struggle, we think, we listen, We're enlightened, we're happy, then we can pass the happiness to people around us. . .
what's the purpose of life? Happiness from heart. Easy, but not easy.
I am glad that we gather here to talk about something which we may not be able to share in our real life.
Write! Express! Cherish! & Celebrate!
"You better slow down.
Don't dance so fast.
Time is short.
The music won't last. "
by a terminally ill young girl in a New York Hospital
It seems to me that ZZ needs more Water...
:))
读的诗多了,会慢慢发现,真正的诗人是不能将诗当做变为"圣人"的工具的....
假装"肉体"不存在的属于宗教极端分子....:))
诗歌不像其它学院派的写作,她给人的是"感觉," 是灵感,而不是随意的临摹，或“说明书”。。。"
very well-said!!! especially 诗歌...她给人的是"感觉," 是灵感...
be honest, I don't like read poems without "肉体"(一般是肉眼看不到的) even though I like "Celebration"...为灵魂,为精神...
"肉体",灵魂,精神 = A human being; 灵魂,精神 without "肉体", what's that???
I am a human being...I like to read poems written by human beings...
律周: a 大侠 from 西域 wearing a long cloak of "阳光和阴霾"??? kidding :)
my sense of humour is very very bad, yy and sd knew that...
"童言无忌"...
:))
我一直以为诗歌是一种"Celebration"...为灵魂,为精神,甚至为肉体...一般是肉眼看不到的,但不是说诗歌的创作可以忽略所谓的"技术问题"...但"技术/技巧"不是诗....
读的诗多了,会慢慢发现,真正的诗人是不能将诗当做变为"圣人"的工具的....
假装"肉体"不存在的属于宗教极端分子....:))
诗歌不像其它学院派的写作,她给人的是"感觉," 是灵感,而不是随意的临摹，或“说明书”。。。
我发现大家的切磋越来越有深度。
惭愧我还没读到律周的诗，现在知道了，一定要拜读！
律周说话也很耐人寻味---黑色幽默？：））
“律周: 感谢诸位接纳,能享受你们的阳光和阴霾是我的荣幸.“
好久没看到过“阴霾”这个词了。
ZZ's living room has new guest now. :) Should have more different voices. :))
I'll continue to be an audience as I always was...:)
Have a nice chat!
影云, I totally agree what you said... thank you for your kind feedback always...
When I say mountains and ocean, I mean the feelings, even feelings behind feelings, not mere images. zz’s poems are spiritual and enlightening which does not mean he does not the struggle or pains for life; instead, he seeks for how to live the fullest of life. His poems are lightness born out of heaviness. lz’s poems seemingly focus on the outside world, but the feelings hidden his poems are deep.
The way we express ourselves may have something to do with our life experiences.
律周, that's why you said: "诗歌是条不错的船,水能载舟亦能覆舟."??????
but many times, I can feel 山 when I see 海; I can feel 海 when I see 山...and I can feel other skys between 山 and 海......I don't know why?
I think this is my way of reading poetry and observing this world...
I agree yy: "诗本身就是思索".... and I really like the poems such as ZZ's "Each the different, Each the same" and many others....Li-Young Lee "Every Circle Wider"....etc. because I can feel they are thinking so deep......touched my deep heart...
美人鱼好!
但他们从不同的角度里沉入内心，都具备思索的特性 [诗本身就是思索]。这就是我
的感觉，也欣赏这种角度的不同。
人鱼的感受很SHARP；下海了？怎么很久不见呢？：)
律周的诗，思维发散且极具跳跃性。在城市的夹缝中努力寻找一线湛蓝的天空。生活是感受，更是思索。呈现与作舟完全不同的风格。作舟的诗充满激情，热烈，呐喊，柔情，灵魂，狂想；律周的诗，带些沉重，冷静，若哲人冷眼看俗世---人们视我如常人，我却知自己的灵魂在挣扎着生存，只为寻求一个答案。
大家好！
律周说话非常谨慎厚道，城俯一定不浅．．．
另外，有了更多的男同胞，我开起玩笑也就更放纵了：））
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问好律周，拜读了您的博客，感觉您的诗里也是有很好的“个性”品质。。。
希望能多听到您对诗的感受与见解，“砍砍”作舟双壁轩里的诗与文。。。我以为真的诗人都海涵，“诗的"无限延伸"...“
上次出言无忌，请见谅。。。
诗的"不可翻译"也是说诗的"无限延伸"...
感谢你们的翻译和带来的乐趣!!!
I also tried to use "沉醉"... "平淡"... "河道"...but changed as my own 个性:) that's why I thought of 诗歌的“不可翻译性”......